Q 13

PLAYBOY: Can he change?

Gerry Adams: You know, he was a leader of the Vanguard movement. The Vanguard was a bigoted, anti-Catholic organization that had no other purpose or reason for its existence. For David Trimble to have gone from that background to where he is now is remarkable. Intellectually he has come around, but emotionally he's still into vanguardism. So every so often he will take a step back. I think we have to understand the difficulties that he faces, and we have a responsibility to understand that we will be faced with people like this. Trimble has to treat us the way he wants to be treated.

Q 14

PLAYBOY: The marches the Orangemen hold to commemorate the glorious victories of a few centuries ago must be particularly difficult to tolerate.

Gerry Adams: It's tribal. I was curfewed along with the residents of my neighborhood this time last year when the Orangemen marched through. Right past my front door. Three policemen surrounded my front door and assaulted me. They pushed me back with their huge plastic shields. One of the policemen pointed a gun directly at my head over his plastic shield. Over the policeman's shoulder I could see the Orangemen marching. It was 8:30 on a Saturday morning. I felt sad for them. I felt sad for the futility and silliness.

Q 15

PLAYBOY: Three children were burned to death as a result of these marches. And it was another of your antagonists, Ian Paisley of the Orange order, who may have incited the men who did it. Do you blame him?

Gerry Adams: I sat with Paisley in the Forum during the peace negotiations. It was the first time that I had actually watched him or that I was part of a debate with him. My overall sense of him was sadness, that a faction of our people could be so twisted by a racist agenda. Ian Paisley is a demagogue and uses the language of demagoguery to demonize people. He talks about the pope, who he says is the Antichrist. He whips people up. He engages in this type of exhibitionism and demagoguery. And at the end of the spectrum of hate is someone who kills three wee boys.

Q 16

PLAYBOY: Do you blame Paisley for the deaths?

Gerry Adams: I don't want to apportion blame or responsibility. I think that all factions of our people have suffered enough; no one has had a monopoly. But over the past 20 years there have been specific incidents of violence, and you have to cite him as the cause. Ian Paisley is symptomatic of the type of state and of the type of political conditions which exist in this part of Ireland. Granted, he's an extreme manifestation of it, but, remember, a lot of people support Paisley. He received his doctorate in divinity from the States--from Bob Jones University in South Carolina.

Q 17

PLAYBOY: Bob Jones made no secret of his racism. Is it a racist dispute or a political dispute?

Gerry Adams: The difference is one of political allegiance. I mean, you can't tell a Protestant from a Catholic. Unionism is a political ideology, it upholds the union with England as far as it upholds the privileged way of life for those loyal to Britain here. And without British support, it would not exist.

Q 18

PLAYBOY: You seem to be forgiving them. Is that a fair assessment?

Gerry Adams: An interesting thing is that the Irish flag stands for peace and equality and independence between the Orange [Unionists] and the Green [Irish]. The white stripe in the middle represents unity between them. I think we have a long way to go. And I won't be satisfied until we have peace, freedom and Irish unity.

Q 19

PLAYBOY: You have become an international celebrity in the process. A recent article in The New York Times, by Maureen Dowd, describes your sudden celebrity. You are now, she says, radical chic: wearing Armani suits, with women hanging all over you. Is it true, as she says, that Bianca Jagger is one of your groupies?

Gerry Adams: [Laughs] No! Absolutely not. I don't own an Armani suit. And I met Bianca Jagger once when she was here traveling with Senator Robert Torricelli. I haven't talked to Maureen yet, so it wouldn't be fair to be critical, but none of that is true.

Q 20

PLAYBOY: Irish humor is celebrated for its instructive insights. Do you have a joke that can lead to peace?

Gerry Adams: There is a joke I tell often that in some way sums it up. There is a little old Irish lady standing on a corner in one of the projects in Belfast. There is a group of British soldiers standing in the street looking at maps. The street signs have all been torn down by the Irish to make it difficult to find the way. A British officer walks over to the old woman and says, "Madam, can you tell me where this road goes?" And she says, "I've lived here all my life, and I've never seen it go anywhere." And the officer says, "Madam, you are a stupid Irishman." And the old lady says, "Maybe so, but I'm not the one who is lost here." It is something of a metaphor for the British in Ireland. They got lost here. They couldn't find their way out. Now maybe they can and just go home.